It seems that the main issue here right now is fear. Let's generalize a bit shall we? So you Americans basicly fear and hate each other. How long has this been going on? Always? I've heard that after 9/11 your media changed to this gigantic propaganda machine. Has that anything to do with your fear?

By the way, reading this thread has made me appreciate my home more than ever. Thank you

By the way, reading this thread has made me appreciate my home more than ever. Thank you

We only have top suicide rates and alcohol deaths, xenophobic people and over-protective government... But yea, many precious good things also. All have their issues, the problem with U.S. is that they inflict theirs on the whole world. Unfortunately, seems we'll soon be in the same shit with the NATO enthusiasm and increasing authoritative control.

By the way, reading this thread has made me appreciate my home more than ever. Thank you

We only have top suicide rates and alcohol deaths, xenophobic people and over-protective government... But yea, many precious good things also. All have their issues, the problem with U.S. is that they inflict theirs on the whole world. Unfortunately, seems we'll soon be in the same shit with the NATO enthusiasm and increasing authoritative control.

My main point was that we (or at least the people I know) are not afraid.

Not all Americans are idiots, and not all people in other countries are Einsteins. How about we keep it to a nice, civil discussion, and leave out how much we can't stand other people.

K, thanks.

Sorry, delete the post if you want.

EDIT: If you wanted to, you probably already would have. :p Or would you prefer I edit it since no one as quoted it as of yet?

Well, it's racist to think all Americans are stupid.

But I have American first cousins who our family are pretty close to, and I have a few buddies from there too. My cousins are the typical 'American Dream' family really, much as I love them. Two kids, one boy one girl. Dad works, mom works part-time. They have a labrador, a big house and a space wagon to defy the European bid for clean air. The boy's nearly ten now. A kid pulled a knife on him on his school bus a few weeks back. And nothing was said or done about it, for the most part. And they don't mind. They're confident the system will deal with him, hopefully as well as the government deals with this eminent 'terrorism' that every person who carries a Koran seems to be capable of.

One of my American friends, you can't mention guns or Mexicans to him. We asked him politely if he'd vote Bush again, given the choice. He said he did it before and he'd do it again, we asked why and he said 'Better Republican than Democrats' or something ridiculous like that. OMFG. Look what it's done to the country. Most people die in foreign countries before they even get a chance to drink beer!

So, based on my experiences with American people, I find that they've left a bit of a negative impression on me. But they have astronauts, top scientists, excellent medical practicioneers and I can't say all Americans are stupid. Even though I'd like to, because of that woman we saw gazing at a leprachaun puppet a man had in Dublin and going 'Oh my gaaawd' in the silliest tone of voice.

And it's been very clearly depicted that this is a country where violence is prominent in day-to-day life, and you have to wonder why a country who deem themselves 'civilized' have escaped the clutches of conversation and reason and resort to slaughter every time somebody decides they may not be very logical in what they're saying.

So why use guns as a means of protection? Well it guarantees nobody can beat you. This is undermining your own ability to defend yourself, verbally or physically. It means you don't have to do any work, just press down on the trigger and bang.. no more contraversy. Typical of the American culture of lifts instead of stairs and fast food instead of home-cooked meals. I could go on, but I think everybody gets the idea. It's primarily a convenience thing! Using a murderous weapon as a means of saving time.

Not to say that guns aren't ridiculous when other countries use them. Just, I've had my face kicked in by twelve people walking down the streets of Cork, but I've never had a gun pulled on me..

But that's just my opinion. I'm open to correction in anything I've just said, and my views may not be the conventional 'appropriate' ones.

It seems that the main issue here right now is fear. Let's generalize a bit shall we? So you Americans basicly fear and hate each other. How long has this been going on? Always? I've heard that after 9/11 your media changed to this gigantic propaganda machine. Has that anything to do with your fear?

By the way, reading this thread has made me appreciate my home more than ever. Thank you

Uh, I'm not sure. I don't personally fear a group of people in the "That person looks to be from somewhere else, so they must be a danger to society" sense. There is a lot of that, though. As far as I can remember (I'm 18), there's always been a group whose been under the spotlight/gun for some reason or another. I've avoided the major news channels for a while now, so I can't say exactly how much of a propaganda machine they have become.

I do think that either the media or people (can't really tell sometimes, one seems to always be followed very closely by the other) gets very up-in-arms over things. Sometimes rightfully so, like the recent discussions about gun control. Other times less so, like the repercussions (sp?) of Anna nicole Smith's death, which turned into a BIG deal. Or the uproar over Don Imus' comment, which I think was a large overreaction.

Back to guns, slightly: I personally think the Constitution needs a bit of an update. For instance, the Second Amendment, for those who do not know, states: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." I don't mind the right to bear arms at all, but I'm fairly sure that militias are no longer the primary form of national defense. How this could be updated exactly, I'm not sure, but it's clear that things have changed a bit since 1791. There are a few other examples of this, but they are less relevant to the disscusion(s) at hand.

I've heard that after 9/11 your media changed to this gigantic propaganda machine. Has that anything to do with your fear?

Do this answer your question?



I know that the whole fear of terrorist, Hispanics, and Democrats is really bad in the midwest. On either coast, you don't really have much of that. I just think that Americans need to stop playing the blame game for all of the problems in this country and maybe turn inward just a bit to see what's really going on.

One problem with discussions like this is that it's rare that anyone's mind is changed. It usually only upsets people. Kinda like religion. People believe what they have always been taught. Maybe it would be different with a group of people who are more (musically) open-minded.

I live in America and own firearms. I also own two cars. I ride my bike to work, though, most days. For that matter I own three bikes. My point is that even though I own two cars, I don't always drive it. And, I'm certainly not able to ride all of my bikes all the time. But, I'm glad I have them when I need them.

Some have suggested that there's no reason to have a gun so it's useless and dangerous to own one. It's true that guns can be dangerous. But, many things are dangerous if you use them incorrectly. I have never used a gun for self-protection, nor have I ever committed a crime with one. I take them target shooting, if I use them at all. My cars are also dangerous. People die every day because of the misuse of cars. But, no one calls for the banning of cars because everyone enjoys using them. Cars are powerful, big, and pollute the environment. They are also convenient.

If I had to lay bets on what was going to kill me prematurely, I'd pick a) cancer, b) car accident or c) cycling accident. I don't even think about being shot by a gun. The fact is that despite whatever distorted notions about America you might have, *most* people do not own guns around here. It might have to do with the fact that I live in a very urban area in California (which has the most restrictive gun laws in the nation and is the one of the most liberal states).

My take, though, is that if you are a law-abiding citizen, you have a clean record, can prove the competency to handle a firearm, that you should be able to obtain a permit to carry one. The advantage to this is that most criminals would then have to deal with the fact that anyone on the street could potentially protect themselves or others with a legal firearm. It's like having cops everywhere! Two states in the nation have laws similar to this: Florida and Texas. Those two states also have some of the lowest violent crime rates. If you believe those who call for more gun laws, you'd think that those two states would be like the Wild West with blood running in the streets. But, they appear to be safer than other states. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

There's another historical perspective here that I believe is important to remember. The writers of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights knew that if you wanted a democracy of the people and for the people that the people had to have power. They needed the power to overthrow the government if it became corrupt. When you outlaw guns, you start to remove that ability. Some will tell me this is foolish, that the average citizens can't fight tanks and missiles and trained soldiers. I will offer several rebuttals. Tell that to the people of Afghanistan, Iraq and Vietnam and I think they will argue with you. I don't honestly think that Americans will rise up against the government but I don't want to vote to have that right and ability to be taken either. Who knows? Maybe it will be exercised one day.

I want to also say that there is no equivalence between gun ownership and foreign policy. Someone suggested that Americans want to force their views on everyone else or kill them if they don't agree. First, America has hundreds of millions of citizens. It's a GROSS over-generalization to apply a single mindset to Americans. Right now, 70% (or more) disapprove of Bush and his administration. Why they re-elected him (hell, elected him in the first place) is beyond me. But for that matter, I'm becoming to think that the it doesn't really matter who you elect because they are all the same underneath the empty ideology. Anyway, the majority of Americans are against the war and think we should never have gone in to Iraq in the first place. (Try also to remember that six years ago, the whole world was in favor of America hunting down terrorists. Unfortunately, Bush et. al. squandered that precious consensus by falsifying evidence at the U.N. to justify the Iraq war. If the rest of the world had any stones they'd put Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield, and others, on trial for war crimes. Torture, Geneva Conventions?)

Anyway, my bottom line is this. Guns are useful and not inherently bad. Saying that is like saying no one should own stoves. They have fire, could burn you, etc. After all, you don't need one anymore, you could just use a microwave and wear a jacket or a blanket. People should not use fire in the home. It's just too dangerous!

But, that's preposterous. Things can be dangerous, but it's mostly because people don't know how to use them safely. There are good reasons to own guns. Safety, civic responsibility, recreation.

Boy, this is a great post. First off, you're never going to get a lot of anti-gun-control people on a musician's discussion board . Secondly, this "gun culture" BS about America is just that, BS. A couple of "journalists" and "filmmakers" have found success playing on people's stereotypes and irrational fears and you can hear it when people on the other side of the gun control debate talk about it, they're literally repeating things verbatim from these sources.

Here's the real "gun control" issue. If you're the only one in a large area with a gun, you control the area. This terrible terrible shooting at Virginia tech was in a "gun-free zone," which is some weirdo idealistic wish-the-problem-away thing. The signs should have read "victim murder zone," because that's what ended up happening. As has been said a trillion times, laws and "gun free zones" only affect the law-abiding citizen. Yes, in this latest incident, the perp's guns were obtained legally, but they were used illegally - they were brought into this so-called "gun free zone" where guns were not allowed.

Not only does that speak to the argument that laws don't ever stop criminals, but also that when there's only one guy with a gun, and our kids are raised to believe in this scary "gun culture," then the guy with the gun runs the show. Sometimes, you have to fight fire with fire and I see these things and I think to myself, a good shot with a concealed carry permit would've stopped this with so fewer casualties. And when the number dead is over 30, I can't even listen to the argument that there would be "bullets flying everywhere" if someone tried to stop him two kills in.

I'm going to get flamed for this I'm sure so I'll stop.

Here in Indiana, there is a big gun culture here. I imagine it's different where you're from.

I constantly have people telling me how afraid they are of going into big cities because of violence and feel they need a gun for protection.

It must be a midwestern mentality.

I have plenty of friends and relatives that own firearms and I don't mind if they do or not. I just know it's not for me and probably never will be.

..this "gun culture" BS about America is just that, BS. A couple of "journalists" and "filmmakers" have found success playing on people's stereotypes and irrational fears and you can hear it when people on the other side of the gun control debate talk about it, they're literally repeating things verbatim from these sources.

But there is a gun culture in the US, as there is in a number if different very big places in the world. I mean, not all of the states are overrun with guns but in a lot of the main ones; LA, NY, NJ etc., you'll find that the vast majority of people carry guns on their person when merely walking down a mainstreet.

And if there's one thing I've noticed, it's that the American government have a lot of control over what the people can worry about and can't. You hear of people being shot in the streets far more frequently than you hear of scandals within the government or crisises within the public sector. And that's a prime example of thought police in action. If the people are worrying about issues that will affect them directly, then the odd story about troubles regarding state affairs won't trouble them so much. So they pick a topic, Gun Culture. You're dead right. But it's not to say it's not a problem. More a means of camoflaguing perhaps more scandalous issues.

But I'm a major conspiracy theorist when it comes to American popular culture. So you can completely disregard what I just said if you don't reckon it's true.

..Here's the real "gun control" issue. If you're the only one in a large area with a gun, you control the area. This terrible terrible shooting at Virginia tech was in a "gun-free zone," which is some weirdo idealistic wish-the-problem-away thing. The signs should have read "victim murder zone," because that's what ended up happening. As has been said a trillion times, laws and "gun free zones" only affect the law-abiding citizen. Yes, in this latest incident, the perp's guns were obtained legally, but they were used illegally - they were brought into this so-called "gun free zone" where guns were not allowed.

Ah but if every law abiding citizen took this view, then it wouldn't be a "gun-free zone". It would be an " 'only pull your gun out if you feel under jeopardy' zone". Anyway what in the name of Jehova was a man like yer man doing with a gun in the first place? How did somebody with his history get a gun? We've constantly said throughout this thread, if the requirements were tighter in the distribution of guns, people like that loony who should never have a weapon of any sort, let alone a firearm, wouldn't be a threat to the people. Thence, no need for " 'only pull your gun out if you feel under jeopardy' zones".

..Sometimes, you have to fight fire with fire and I see these things and I think to myself, a good shot with a concealed carry permit would've stopped this with so fewer casualties. And when the number dead is over 30, I can't even listen to the argument that there would be "bullets flying everywhere" if someone tried to stop him two kills in.

It's only in places where there are guns distributed so readily that attacks like this happen. Never once in Ireland do I ever recall us having mass homocide in a public place that involved a firearm. But I suppose you're right, in that it's too late for America at this stage. The guns are out there now and not even a nationwide forced weapons amnesty could do anything. I can't pose a solution, but I can certainly define the problem. I'm fairly useless.

..I'm going to get flamed for this I'm sure so I'll stop.

Not flaming, as such! Just expressing my point of view.

But I suppose you're right, in that it's too late for America at this stage.

That is the interesting question at hand. Is it really too late to change course and think differently about the whole gun craziness, and consequently the violent war business going on around the world, or has it reached a point of no return already? When did it get too late? Though I feel pessimistic at times, I like to think giving up to chaos and violence being a mockery of human intelligence and vast undiscovered potential. Silly humans.

[JuZ]

Boy, this is a great post. First off, you're never going to get a lot of anti-gun-control people on a musician's discussion board . Secondly, this "gun culture" BS about America is just that, BS. A couple of "journalists" and "filmmakers" have found success playing on people's stereotypes and irrational fears and you can hear it when people on the other side of the gun control debate talk about it, they're literally repeating things verbatim from these sources.

Here's the real "gun control" issue. If you're the only one in a large area with a gun, you control the area. This terrible terrible shooting at Virginia tech was in a "gun-free zone," which is some weirdo idealistic wish-the-problem-away thing. The signs should have read "victim murder zone," because that's what ended up happening. As has been said a trillion times, laws and "gun free zones" only affect the law-abiding citizen. Yes, in this latest incident, the perp's guns were obtained legally, but they were used illegally - they were brought into this so-called "gun free zone" where guns were not allowed.

Not only does that speak to the argument that laws don't ever stop criminals, but also that when there's only one guy with a gun, and our kids are raised to believe in this scary "gun culture," then the guy with the gun runs the show. Sometimes, you have to fight fire with fire and I see these things and I think to myself, a good shot with a concealed carry permit would've stopped this with so fewer casualties. And when the number dead is over 30, I can't even listen to the argument that there would be "bullets flying everywhere" if someone tried to stop him two kills in.

I'm going to get flamed for this I'm sure so I'll stop.

Meh... flaming is boring. Back to the subject at hand.

"The NRA is you -- its members ... millions of Americans representing a diverse contrast of age, sex, race and religion. You're patriots one and all. You believe in the Constitution, staunch in the defense of your rights, and you actively pursue some of this country's finest traditions - Hunting and Sports Shooting. Since its incorporation in 1871, the NRA has grown as a service organization involved in all aspects of the shooting sports and a proud defender of the Bill of Rights." - http://www.nra.org

The NRA has an estimated 4,000,000 members, but the US doesn't have even the tiniest gun sub-culture?



Most countries have some sort of gun-related community. Australia certainly does. We even have the Shooter's Party in New South Wales, holding two seats in the state's Upper House. However the community in the US is far more prevalent, outspoken and influential, and is clearly a more significant element of the nation's culture than in many other countries, (obviously in the Mid West and the South in particular).

Simply by advocating for students or staff at a University to carry concealed weapons, you're demonstrating this differentiation. If I were to suggest something similar in Australia for example, I would be decried as a gun-toting loony. Different countries, different realities, different attitudes to firearms and different firearm-related death and injury rates. For example, Australia was home to one of the world's worst single-gunman massacres about ten years ago, when Martin Bryant murdered 35 people and injured 37 others. Even our Prime Minister, who is considered a right-wing conservative by our standards, ordered a massive gun buy-back in response. Whether that buy-back hurt anyone other than legitimate owners was questionable, but it's indicative of the difference in attitudes towards firearms between different societies.

Now, I wouldn't suggest trying to 'wish the problem away' at all. But is shooting back at the problem the only alternative solution? Honestly, is that the best the US can come up with? Is that the only alternative to gun control? Surely there has to be a third alternative. There must be more going on here than simply a lack of guns in the "right" hands. If it were that simple then the same situation would be replicated the world over, and it isn't. Other countries that have lower firearm death and injury rates than the States don't all have citizens carrying 9mm's in their briefcase or their backpack, so how can that be the only solution? Your argument is fundamentally flawed and defies logic.

However, let's say you're right. If that really is the case, then that's a scary, wild west style reality to be living in, where the only way to make your society feel safe is to give the peaceful majority the capacity to shoot someone at a moment's notice. I don't think I'd ever trust anyone outside my friends and family. I value my ability to walk the streets of my town, safe in the knowledge that it's highly unlikely that anyone around me has the capacity to point a Smith & Wesson in my face, be they good, bad or ugly.

For the record, and contrary to your stated assumptions, some of us foreign, nancy-boy gun-haters have lived, worked or spent significant amounts of time in the US. Actually, we're planning a trip towards the end of the year, ha ha! We aren't all Michael Moore zombies. But hey, if you guys want to carry firearms, then it's your constitution, your society and your culture, "gun culture" or otherwise.

pah you all talk to much!!!
whats a gun good for??? killling things
where are all these guns coming from??? america
if you fell the need to kill stuff buy a gun
if your a normal person intent on perserving the peace make them go away

guns kill things
american are contitutional allowed the power of killing things, maybe your best friend

remember the truth is guns kill things thats why we killing things with them
i guess the real question is do you put life before guns?



do you put the right to own guns before life???

[quote="JuZ"][quote="Fuzzplug Jones"]
Australia was home to one of the world's worst single-gunman massacres about ten years ago, when Martin Bryant murdered 35 people and injured 37 others. Even our Prime Minister, who is considered a right-wing conservative by our standards, ordered a massive gun buy-back in response. [quote]


dude, you should look into the martin bryant thing, its was a conspricy
ha
god i must sound like a parnoid freak!!!!
but there is footage shown on the news of him running away from the cafe he shot up and there two guys standing out front smoking casually outside the cafe!!! ahahahahah
also the amout of shots fired and the amount of hits was at a military level
like fullblown sharpshooter, and martin is an interlectually handicapped dude, then the goverment man comes and take our guns!!!

dude what is going on???

[JuZ]

Ok.