yep, that's something we should mention explicitly in a thread like this: the overall sound of his records is always great. so don't be sad, devin! but you should treat the mighty masturbator a bit more carefully than synchestra when it comes to mastering.

back to topic: city has got a great sound. not so much in terms of technical perfection, but it suits the atmosphere and meaning of the record perfectly. same thing goes for infinity.

@yeast: i think what gene does to his cymbals is great as he does it, they were just treated bad in the mix. you can make a sound stand out or at least be locateable and still keep a large amount of dynamics. maybe devin didn't want them any louder or he just lost them out of sight in some way. if you have one huge project in your head for weeks, you most certainly loose distance to it. it's already unreal what amounts of musical informations devon can keep in his head at all. and, talking of terria: i think the rest of the mix is enormous! there's so much going on all the time, and everything is in such harmony, it's easy to ignore such minor flaws IMO.

Granted, the bass drums and snare are absolutely clear in the mix - they stick out like sore thumbs - but there's no power in the drums, because the power comes across in the use of cymbals (in metal), and when you bury the cymbals, you bury the power.

(...)

With all that said, I voted for City because both the production value of every instrument AND the mix are perfect in every way. I don't know if Dev has topped it yet, IMO.

Interesting, how opinions (and probably the hearing) differs from person to person. For me, metal drums sound weak when the snare sound sucks (like it unfortunately does on The New Black - more reverb, please!). Terria's production is almost perfect, apart from the interludes (too quiet). Nothing sticks out "like a sore thumb" on this one - wtf?

In contrast, I think the produciton on City is good, but doesn't reach later Devin production standards. Where is the snare on this album? It's not very sharp, not centered in the mix and has a strange tone. Allround production is a bit rough. Best SYL production: Alien, best DT(B) production: Biomech, Infinity, Terria, Accelerated Evolution.

Hard to pick just one, and since I always IQ my music and give it more emphasis on the bass and treble, all of Devin's work sounds very very good. I need better headphones though.

EDIT:

on a more serious note, Synchestra VASTLY improved the drum sound to Accelerated Evolution, which I can't STAND. The drums are waaaay down in the mix on AE.

What the fuck? I mean, WHAT THE FUCK?
Do we listen to the same albums with same drum sounds? Listen to Depth Charge and Hypergeek again and tell me the drum sound are "waaaay down" in the mix on AE, the bass, snare, toms and cymbals? I don't get it.

I think his best drum sounds so far were on the New Black

I'm almost speechless. How someone can prefer such a flat snare is beyond me (except for jazz records). I need my snare on metal albums (and live!) "warm", with reverb. Metal drum sounds must resonate and breathe.

I hated Meshuggah's Nothing from that standpoint. A totally dry, lifeless and awkward sound, not just the drums, the guitars, too.

Oh well.

I think all of the things Devin has produced sound great overall (although I haven't heard too much of other bands he's produced because they all kinda blow).

eh, schuetzenfest! you take it seriously, huh?

ps.: i LOVE the "strange tone" of the snare on city. it adds a lot to the unique gigantic feel of that record. see how opinions differ.

I think his best drum sounds so far were on the New Black

I'm almost speechless. How someone can prefer such a flat snare is beyond me (except for jazz records). I need my snare on metal albums (and live!) "warm", with reverb. Metal drum sounds must resonate and breathe.

I hated Meshuggah's Nothing from that standpoint. A totally dry, lifeless and awkward sound, not just the drums, the guitars, too.

Oh well.

Ah yes, mein fruend, people have different opinions about what sounds good. What I meant was that the overall sound and mix of the drums just rules, and it really fits the production of the songs. The dryness is kind of refreshing, actually. The snare is not totally dry, it just sounds that way compared to his other stuff, which is usually highly effected. The drums just sound so clean and precise, awesome toms, and the cymbals are really clear. Plus, the snare drum actually sounds like a snare drum. I like heavily effected drums too, it's just that the drier more straighforward sounds seem to really work for TNB. In my opinion.

eh, schuetzenfest! you take it seriously, huh?

TOTALLY!

My two cents:

I always take the production "as it is" like "it is meant to be that way" and listen to the music, not bothering my pretty head with pretentious interventions of the "what could be done better" or "would suit the album better" kind. I treat the notes played and the knobs turned exactly the same. I immerse myself into the record, not trying to look at it from a distance. If I can't immerse myself into the record, that means I don't like it and again I can't bother my pretty head with pretentious interventions of the "what could make me like this record" kind.

If I pull my head out of my ass for a while, I can say I missed the snare on the self-titled record, allthough that didn't stop from playing it for two months non-stop.

There.

Synchestra sounds like shit. That was harsh, I know, but I can't stand the production on the two major instruments, the guitars and the drums. Here's what gets my OCD going:
- The drums sound like cardboard. Too clicky a bass drum, terrible snare sound (it "snaps," as if they tuned it too high).
- The guitars have zero punch. They have punch in volume - very loud stuff as is Dev's forté - but it's all mids. No clarity, just a bland-ish mess of middle frequency distortion.

I know it's nitpicky, but I really can't help it anymore. As far as Synchestra's mastering goes, I agree it sounds iffy in terms of the dynamics, but it's not actually compressed (Dev's records are actually very good in this department; most of the masters leave enough headroom to stop the sound from overcompressing badly and leaving noticeable artifacts, like digital distortion). I think it may be the EQ job that is sending your ears in a frenzy; while the levels in the final product seem balanced enough to keep our ears from bleeding, it's blatantly obvious that the treble frequencies dominate. Listening to Synchestra is like listening to any metal band through those tiny earbuds you get with MP3 players - all treble, nothing in any of the lower thresholds. It's a damn shame.

Das Schuetzenfest: I got the impression that you were probably thinking of the end of "The Fluke" or the end of "Mountain" when making the comment about Terria's production being too low during the quiet parts. I can see what you mean, but I think that is actually an asset. In metal, dynamics don't exist. You are as loud as you can be when you start and you're just as loud when you end. Dev brings a great deal more emotional depth with his music not only because of the stuff he writes or the instruments he uses, but also because of his use of dynamics. "Deep Peace" is such a perfect example - it's mellow and quiet at the start, set to the gorgeous sounds of swamp and birds; it builds, and when all the instruments come in, it's fucking HUGE. The dynamics lower during the guitar solo - ever notice how the most brilliant and influential guitarists know how to use dynamics during a solo? - and then explode again when everyone else comes in. The end of "The Fluke" brings you down from its poppy, feel-good, hard-hitting madness in a logical, synthetic way, preparing you for the slow and emotionally powerful ballad ("Nobody's Here") to follow. The end of "Mountain" fades away into the mist and has you straining to hear just long enough to calm you down before "Earth Day" blows your eardrums to tiny shards. An even better example of Dev's brilliance with dynamics is all across Ocean Machine, which literally rises and falls in volume like waves (the transition between "Sister" and "3 A.M." sounds like the tides running out, then gradually back in, and then you're drowned again with "Voices in the Fan," which falls like tides again when it ends - fucking great headphone record).

I get very particular about drum sounds, especially in metal. My single standard in terms of amazing drum sound comes out of the Mars Volta - listen to the drums on their debut LP De-Loused in the Comatorium. That is a PERFECT sound, IMO. You don't hear a single bit of "tin can" off of the snare, the bass drum is a perfect mix of click and thump and aren't lost beneath the bass guitar frequencies, the toms sound stable and thick and don't come anywhere near overpowering the drum mix, and the cymbals are SO rich and crisp (and you can hear all of them!). I realize a band like the Mars Volta aren't musically very relevant to Dev, who plays pop metal basically, but I think TMV's drum sound should apply across the board in rock. You don't need ANY effects, just a dry room with no room mics and no slapback echoing. It's very Jon Bonham-esque - I don't like Led Zeppelin much, but the guy had it right for years and years! If there's one area the "analogue" methods of recording should still apply, it's on a rock drumkit.

With that said, I had some problems adjusting to most of Dev's post-Infinity (which also sounds beautiful, minus the overcompressed mastering) drum sounds. Accelerated Evolution has quite a unique sound in this department, unmistakably; I can't tell "Traveller" apart from "Sunday Afternoon" whenever either song starts because I don't like them very much, but as soon as the drums come in, you KNOW that shit is on Accelerated Evolution. The snare sounds pretty shitty I guess, but I've warmed up to it after all these years (gee, don't I sound young - I'm only in my first year of university and already I'm whipping out the "in my day!"). The room reverb on it is very unique, and while I'd never ever let a drummer in my band let his snare sound like that, it works. However, if there had been any hint of the "tin" sound off of his snare with that setup, I would've barfed.

Das Schuetzenfest: About the "metal drums must breathe" thing - what's your opinion on triggering? More and more black metal bands are using them to achieve the sound they want at the speed they want (for instance, Hellhammer on the re-recording of Dimmu Borgir's "Stormblåst" - not the most necro example, I know) but at the cost of dynamics (which they don't use anyway) and groove/feel (which they don't write into the music anyway). Part of what makes me anxious about listening to Meshuggah is that their music relies SO much on the groove, but yet they have this mechanical, breathless drum production whether Tomas is actually playing or whether they're using the Drumkit From Hell. They sounded SO MUCH BETTER on Destroy Erase Improve, when the mix had headroom and the drums could fuckin breathe. These days, there's zero headroom (the waveforms of "I" are just brutally square, it's pathetic) in the mix and the drums are mechanical, as I said, regardless of whether it's "real Haake" or "fake Haake."

Anyway, I've typed enough. One thing I want to mention before anybody takes me up on it: Effects on the drums can sound good (again, IMO) if done right. Riverside's debut LP has incredibly rich drums, because of the mix, correct micing techniques, and the fact that they put just the right amount of reverb on the non-cymbal parts of the kit. It's great. Also, the promo leak of Moonsorrow's "V: Havitetty" has fucking beautiful drums except for when the toms overpower the mix with bass, and they are covered in waves of reverb. Concisely: TMV's drum sound is my highest standard, but it's not like I forget that Blackwater Park (the best metal drum sound ever) has reverb on the kit.

...Wow. Um, I'm gonna have to side with Goat here and say that most of the time, I consider the production/mixing/mastering of any given song or album to be as much a part of the artisty as the music itself. Am I just in the minority of people here who can accept an album's sound as part of the album?

I liked AE's snare sound. I don't care about the technical details, it's a unique sound and I really like it regardless of context. I love Synchestra's guitar tone, and while I agree the drums are a bit cardboard-ish, I think it fits with the rest of the sound just fine and goes with the feel of the album.

While I have no formal training, I consider myself to be fairly decent at mixing and mastering-- and I don't think I've really been annoyed at any element of production in all the albums I've heard, with some exceptions (and even in those cases it was because of a bad casette rip or something similar). Maybe it's just because I have a rather large grudge against self-righteous audiophiles-- not to imply that I'm using that label on anyone here-- but for fuck's sake, I honestly think that some people have forgotten how to enjoy music.

I've been through many phases in my views on production, including the "RED IS EVIL", "No one knows how to use a compressor anymore", and (don't even ask where this one came from) "Highs are evil" views. At this point, I honestly think it all depends on context. Over-compressed, brickwall mastering CAN work for some albums (I'm gonna get smacked for that one), but others need the huge range of dynamics and less mechanical approach for them to work. Some productions wouldn't be the same without the huge amount of crackly highs, some almost need to be on the muddy side of things to work, etc etc etc.

So yeah, that was all pretty forceful for an opinion I suppose, but overanalyzing this kind of thing really gets under my skin. Also when someone starts bitching excessively about some part of the production and/or claiming that it makes it "unlistenable" or saying "I can't stand the production on *REPLACE instrument*". With my music at least, the production and mixing choices are part of my artistic vision. To me it's pretty much the same as saying something like "Man, the bridge in _______ sounds like shit! He shouldn't have used a G chord there, it totally should've been a C! Man, this guy needs to learn how to write music. Remember back in the day when they'd use blues scales and slow power chords instead of this shitty music? No one knows how to write music nowadays."

To me, production is an inextricable part of the music. I try to keep it that way in my mind and not bitch too much about what could've been done instead.

I treat the notes played and the knobs turned exactly the same.

Goat, I never thought of it that way. Well said.

And dammit, I love the drum sound on The New Black.

Agreed, Goat has a way with condensing an excellent point down to a few compact words. And yes, I love TNB's drum sound as well-- 'Hollow' snare and all.

I definitely agree that, in the case of Dev and other artists/groups who retain as much control of their art as possible, the intended sound of the record comes right down to how the kit is mic'd and all those other things I was picking apart in that unnecessarily massive post up there.

I don't think that makes it any less legitimate to compare them, though. It's analogous to the fact that it's preposterous to compare Dev's solo records, but people do it anyway.

Also, can I just bring up that the remaster of Heavy as a Really Heavy Thing absolutely destroyed the sound of the original? You wanna talk about overcompressing... That record needed a re-mix, not just to be louder. *slits wrists*

Mars Volta records have amazing sound quality, although on Amputechture I think they went a little over the top with the speaker jumping and knob fiddling with.

My favourite production on a metal album is probably either Converge - No Heroes (broooootal) or Hammers of Misfortune - The Locust Years.

Synchestra sounds like shit. That was harsh, I know, but I can't stand the production on the two major instruments, the guitars and the drums. Here's what gets my OCD going:
- The drums sound like cardboard. Too clicky a bass drum, terrible snare sound (it "snaps," as if they tuned it too high).
- The guitars have zero punch. They have punch in volume - very loud stuff as is Dev's forté - but it's all mids. No clarity, just a bland-ish mess of middle frequency distortion.

I know it's nitpicky, but I really can't help it anymore. As far as Synchestra's mastering goes, I agree it sounds iffy in terms of the dynamics, but it's not actually compressed (Dev's records are actually very good in this department; most of the masters leave enough headroom to stop the sound from overcompressing badly and leaving noticeable artifacts, like digital distortion). I think it may be the EQ job that is sending your ears in a frenzy; while the levels in the final product seem balanced enough to keep our ears from bleeding, it's blatantly obvious that the treble frequencies dominate. Listening to Synchestra is like listening to any metal band through those tiny earbuds you get with MP3 players - all treble, nothing in any of the lower thresholds. It's a damn shame.

Das Schuetzenfest: I got the impression that you were probably thinking of the end of "The Fluke" or the end of "Mountain" when making the comment about Terria's production being too low during the quiet parts. I can see what you mean, but I think that is actually an asset. In metal, dynamics don't exist. You are as loud as you can be when you start and you're just as loud when you end. Dev brings a great deal more emotional depth with his music not only because of the stuff he writes or the instruments he uses, but also because of his use of dynamics. "Deep Peace" is such a perfect example - it's mellow and quiet at the start, set to the gorgeous sounds of swamp and birds; it builds, and when all the instruments come in, it's fucking HUGE. The dynamics lower during the guitar solo - ever notice how the most brilliant and influential guitarists know how to use dynamics during a solo? - and then explode again when everyone else comes in. The end of "The Fluke" brings you down from its poppy, feel-good, hard-hitting madness in a logical, synthetic way, preparing you for the slow and emotionally powerful ballad ("Nobody's Here") to follow. The end of "Mountain" fades away into the mist and has you straining to hear just long enough to calm you down before "Earth Day" blows your eardrums to tiny shards. An even better example of Dev's brilliance with dynamics is all across Ocean Machine, which literally rises and falls in volume like waves (the transition between "Sister" and "3 A.M." sounds like the tides running out, then gradually back in, and then you're drowned again with "Voices in the Fan," which falls like tides again when it ends - fucking great headphone record).

I get very particular about drum sounds, especially in metal. My single standard in terms of amazing drum sound comes out of the Mars Volta - listen to the drums on their debut LP De-Loused in the Comatorium. That is a PERFECT sound, IMO. You don't hear a single bit of "tin can" off of the snare, the bass drum is a perfect mix of click and thump and aren't lost beneath the bass guitar frequencies, the toms sound stable and thick and don't come anywhere near overpowering the drum mix, and the cymbals are SO rich and crisp (and you can hear all of them!). I realize a band like the Mars Volta aren't musically very relevant to Dev, who plays pop metal basically, but I think TMV's drum sound should apply across the board in rock. You don't need ANY effects, just a dry room with no room mics and no slapback echoing. It's very Jon Bonham-esque - I don't like Led Zeppelin much, but the guy had it right for years and years! If there's one area the "analogue" methods of recording should still apply, it's on a rock drumkit.

With that said, I had some problems adjusting to most of Dev's post-Infinity (which also sounds beautiful, minus the overcompressed mastering) drum sounds. Accelerated Evolution has quite a unique sound in this department, unmistakably; I can't tell "Traveller" apart from "Sunday Afternoon" whenever either song starts because I don't like them very much, but as soon as the drums come in, you KNOW that shit is on Accelerated Evolution. The snare sounds pretty shitty I guess, but I've warmed up to it after all these years (gee, don't I sound young - I'm only in my first year of university and already I'm whipping out the "in my day!"). The room reverb on it is very unique, and while I'd never ever let a drummer in my band let his snare sound like that, it works. However, if there had been any hint of the "tin" sound off of his snare with that setup, I would've barfed.

Das Schuetzenfest: About the "metal drums must breathe" thing - what's your opinion on triggering? More and more black metal bands are using them to achieve the sound they want at the speed they want (for instance, Hellhammer on the re-recording of Dimmu Borgir's "Stormblåst" - not the most necro example, I know) but at the cost of dynamics (which they don't use anyway) and groove/feel (which they don't write into the music anyway). Part of what makes me anxious about listening to Meshuggah is that their music relies SO much on the groove, but yet they have this mechanical, breathless drum production whether Tomas is actually playing or whether they're using the Drumkit From Hell. They sounded SO MUCH BETTER on Destroy Erase Improve, when the mix had headroom and the drums could fuckin breathe. These days, there's zero headroom (the waveforms of "I" are just brutally square, it's pathetic) in the mix and the drums are mechanical, as I said, regardless of whether it's "real Haake" or "fake Haake."

Anyway, I've typed enough. One thing I want to mention before anybody takes me up on it: Effects on the drums can sound good (again, IMO) if done right. Riverside's debut LP has incredibly rich drums, because of the mix, correct micing techniques, and the fact that they put just the right amount of reverb on the non-cymbal parts of the kit. It's great. Also, the promo leak of Moonsorrow's "V: Havitetty" has fucking beautiful drums except for when the toms overpower the mix with bass, and they are covered in waves of reverb. Concisely: TMV's drum sound is my highest standard, but it's not like I forget that Blackwater Park (the best metal drum sound ever) has reverb on the kit.

Hahahaha!

Sorry, couldn't resist!

Triggering? I don't know. I guess it's OK and maybe necessary on the bass drums if you are a high-end metal drummer à la George Kollias, Gene or Nick Barker, as far as speed is concerned, heel/toe technique, swivelling foot technique and all. Dave Lombardo doesn't use triggers and he's pretty fast, though not as fast as some of those death/black metal players I guess.

Apart from that, triggers only for some special effects - check out the intro to Grip Inc.'s Power Of Inner Strength album to hear what I mean.

I really like most productions and drum sounds on Andy Sneap-produced albums - but they sound a bit same-y IMO. The latest Opeth and Katatonia albums with Jens Bogren behind the knobs sound great, drums included. Fear Factory's "Pisschrist" from Demanufacture, producer Colin Richardson, has one of the best metal drums and productions ever, the last Grip Inc. album sounds great, cristal clear, natural and still warm. Most Fredrik Nordström productions sound very good. Millo Karmilla, who produced many Waltari albums from Finland comes to mind. Andy Wallace might be one of metal/rock's best (co-) producers/mixers. Martin Birch...

OK, I'd better stop here.

Oh, and I like the tone of "Drumkit From Hell", it's not as super-dry as the drums on "Nothing".

PS: Maybe you could tone down your word choice a little bit. Although I don't always succeed myself, I try to be diplomatic. It helps. On message boards and in real life.