Atari" was that to me? Who is Omer?

Omer Cordell, photographer. He has done the photoshoots for Alien and Synchestra (and lots more I'm sure)
His website looks like this:



And gurp, there is a difference between artists that want to make money (like Dev and every band that puts out an album, as you say) and those who want ta make as much money as possible, as you mentioned Metallica, Limp Bizkit etc. Dev wants to make money so he can eat and pay the rent. Lars Ulrich wants to make money so he can buy a huge house, millions worth of art, sue Napster, and still be filthy rich.

And gurp, there is a difference between artists that want to make money (like Dev and every band that puts out an album, as you say) and those who want ta make as much money as possible, as you mentioned Metallica, Limp Bizkit etc. Dev wants to make money so he can eat and pay the rent. Lars Ulrich wants to make money so he can buy a huge house, millions worth of art, sue Napster, and still be filthy rich.

I know. I'm not saying there's no difference. But, it's not like Devin is somehow not interested in making money as that "selling out" term seems to suggest. As I said, taking Metallica for instance, it's obvious that they are more or less out of ideas and looking for hits. Those guys don't really like playing together but nobody wants to kill the cash cow. But, it doesn't matter because it's dying anyway. Even Rick Rubin won't resuccitate that thing. Maybe the next album will be better. But, better than what? Better than St. Anger? Gee, color me underwhelmed. Will Metallica ever make an album that sounds as fresh and vital as Master of Puppets did when it came out? I don't think so. Not as they are. (And, note, I did not say they need to make another Master of Puppets. I'm just saying that they no longer capable, as an entity, of that level of creativity.)

I don't begrudge Lars Ulrich the right he has to pimp his music for all it's worth, either. But, I sure wish I hadn't bought St. Anger. I've tried listening to it many times. It SUX. Hard. I may buy the next album but I'll likely want to hear more of it first.

All I'm trying to say is that the whole "sell out" thing is stupid. There is this "holier than thou" attitude that goes with it, that one band or artist is somehow more pure because they haven't sold out (which usually translates to "hasn't had a hit record and isn't phenomenally successful"). It's goofy because it has less to do with the artist and their intentions and more to do with the music fan's desire to be cool because they like something that others don't know about.

[JuZ]

Hehe, it's funny how Metallica (and Lars in particular) end up being the topic of discussion any time money is brought up. I've never really cared for Metallica, apart from the odd song like One, so I don't really care how much Lars pimps himself out. Some Kind of Monster is a good doco though.

If Devin Townsend brand Corn Nuts come out, then I'll be worried. Only then.

well as I watch the olymics snowboarding: they played Christina Aguelera. Prerhaps some of you are right.. thats some pretty mighty company there....

If Devin Townsend brand Corn Nuts come out, then I'll be worried. Only then.

I won't be worried. I'll be happy and satisfied because I ate them after I bought them.

And gurp, there is a difference between artists that want to make money (like Dev and every band that puts out an album, as you say) and those who want ta make as much money as possible, as you mentioned Metallica, Limp Bizkit etc. Dev wants to make money so he can eat and pay the rent. Lars Ulrich wants to make money so he can buy a huge house, millions worth of art, sue Napster, and still be filthy rich.

I know. I'm not saying there's no difference. But, it's not like Devin is somehow not interested in making money as that "selling out" term seems to suggest. As I said, taking Metallica for instance, it's obvious that they are more or less out of ideas and looking for hits. Those guys don't really like playing together but nobody wants to kill the cash cow. But, it doesn't matter because it's dying anyway. Even Rick Rubin won't resuccitate that thing. Maybe the next album will be better. But, better than what? Better than St. Anger? Gee, color me underwhelmed. Will Metallica ever make an album that sounds as fresh and vital as Master of Puppets did when it came out? I don't think so. Not as they are. (And, note, I did not say they need to make another Master of Puppets. I'm just saying that they no longer capable, as an entity, of that level of creativity.)

I don't begrudge Lars Ulrich the right he has to pimp his music for all it's worth, either. But, I sure wish I hadn't bought St. Anger. I've tried listening to it many times. It SUX. Hard. I may buy the next album but I'll likely want to hear more of it first.

All I'm trying to say is that the whole "sell out" thing is stupid. There is this "holier than thou" attitude that goes with it, that one band or artist is somehow more pure because they haven't sold out (which usually translates to "hasn't had a hit record and isn't phenomenally successful"). It's goofy because it has less to do with the artist and their intentions and more to do with the music fan's desire to be cool because they like something that others don't know about.

Dont know what stance you have from all this. the whole sell out thing is real. I think it really deals with how ethical you are to the vision you have. I simply dont think making music is about making a living and income. Sure , that definately is a part of it. But I think what it boils down to is how do you live with yourself with what you do. If Dev did like some of the kids here would like and Market Gaia to an extreme snowboarding X games Mnt dew thing, thats his decision. and he has to live with it. Thats a mark on his life whether he views it good or bad. Whether others do, is another thing but very secondary. Its there. You all want his success, as do I. But what is success? Money? Happiness? Masses of people drooling over a Cd? How can you define success for somebody else?

I was a chef... But quit when compliments meant nothing to me. People would argue I was the best in the city I live in. YAY. who cares. what did it do for me? See above. Compliments meant nothing. Didnt make me happy. Oh I could impress, but so what? Who was I impressing? anybody that mattered to me?

Im getting the impression that everybody here views Devin's Success as selling albums, liscencing songs, etc. Perhaps thats not how HE views success. Its just a thought. I could be wrong. Been wrong many times before.

Not to nit pick but "the music fan's desire to be cool because they like something that others don't know about" This is so myopic. Not many music fans , if you look at the populous, feel this way. They all want to listen to what is cool .If you are hardcore you listen to Tool, if you are a kid, you listen to Brittney spears or whatever else is fashionable that week.
To say such a statement , to me, means that there is a "holier than thou " attitude.....and I have never seen this ANYWHERE save the internet on message boards , when the roosters come to crow their knowledge and their worldliness. And the internet, in actuality, community-wise is VERY myopic. though you may not wish to believe this.

I know. I'm not saying there's no difference. But, it's not like Devin is somehow not interested in making money as that "selling out" term seems to suggest. As I said, taking Metallica for instance, it's obvious that they are more or less out of ideas and looking for hits. Those guys don't really like playing together but nobody wants to kill the cash cow. But, it doesn't matter because it's dying anyway. Even Rick Rubin won't resuccitate that thing. Maybe the next album will be better. But, better than what? Better than St. Anger? Gee, color me underwhelmed. Will Metallica ever make an album that sounds as fresh and vital as Master of Puppets did when it came out? I don't think so. Not as they are. (And, note, I did not say they need to make another Master of Puppets. I'm just saying that they are no longer capable, as an entity, of that level of creativity.)

I don't begrudge Lars Ulrich the right he has to pimp his music for all it's worth, either. But, I sure wish I hadn't bought St. Anger. I've tried listening to it many times. It SUX. Hard. I may buy the next album but I'll likely want to hear more of it first.

All I'm trying to say is that the whole "sell out" thing is stupid. There is this "holier than thou" attitude that goes with it, that one band or artist is somehow more pure because they haven't sold out (which usually translates to "hasn't had a hit record and isn't phenomenally successful"). It's goofy because it has less to do with the artist and their intentions and more to do with the music fan's desire to be cool because they like something that others don't know about.

Dont know what stance you have from all this. the whole sell out thing is real. I think it really deals with how ethical you are to the vision you have. I simply dont think making music is about making a living and income. Sure , that definately is a part of it. But I think what it boils down to is how do you live with yourself with what you do. If Dev did like some of the kids here would like and Market Gaia to an extreme snowboarding X games Mnt dew thing, thats his decision. and he has to live with it. Thats a mark on his life whether he views it good or bad. Whether others do, is another thing but very secondary. Its there. You all want his success, as do I. But what is success? Money? Happiness? Masses of people drooling over a Cd? How can you define success for somebody else?

I'm going to say at the outset, with no offense intended, that it appears to me that you speak another language other than English as your primary language. I say this because I think we will probably have a misunderstanding because of an inability on both sides to be understood. I'm not trying to be bitchy, but I don't see how you could miss my "stance" on this.

You're putting out the idea that an artist needs to be ethichal or he will sell out. But, you muddy the issue with a relativist argument ("that's his decision and he has to live with it. That's a mark on his life whether he views it good or bad.") In otherwords, you have no stance on it.

My stance is that Devin already sold out when he decided to make professional music. Also, selling out is not bad. It is the reality. Certainly there are musicians and artists who start making music with the sole purpose of duplicating past success because they have run out of things to say (Metallica, St. Anger, for example). Devin is not there. So, if he wants to license any of his songs for commercial purposes, I say, rawk on! Do it! Get all the money out of your work that you can! Anybody who says otherwise is a self-righteous ass.

I was a chef... But quit when compliments meant nothing to me. People would argue I was the best in the city I live in. YAY. who cares. what did it do for me? See above. Compliments meant nothing. Didnt make me happy. Oh I could impress, but so what? Who was I impressing? anybody that mattered to me?

You quit your job because people were complimenting you and you didn't care anymore? Okay. I guess. How about becoming a better chef? You were only the best in the city. What about other cities? What about the fact that you were providing a service to the people who loved your food? Don't you think it was very self-serving and selfish to quit because your need for adoration was satisfied?

Im getting the impression that everybody here views Devin's Success as selling albums, liscencing songs, etc. Perhaps thats not how HE views success. Its just a thought. I could be wrong. Been wrong many times before.

I can't speak for others. I think success for Devin would mean total freedom to do what he wants; which he already is, so he is successful, in my mind. Wildly successful. But, that being said, I also think he should wring all the money out of his work that he can. One day he won't be able to play anymore. One day he and Tracy will be old. He will need retirement money, a house, etc. Milk it, I say!

Not to nit pick but "the music fan's desire to be cool because they like something that others don't know about" This is so myopic. Not many music fans , if you look at the populous, feel this way. They all want to listen to what is cool .If you are hardcore you listen to Tool, if you are a kid, you listen to Brittney spears or whatever else is fashionable that week.
To say such a statement , to me, means that there is a "holier than thou " attitude.....and I have never seen this ANYWHERE save the internet on message boards , when the roosters come to crow their knowledge and their worldliness. And the internet, in actuality, community-wise is VERY myopic. though you may not wish to believe this.

I am extremely confused as to what you're talking about here. I'm a high school teacher. I've listened to metal since the early 1980's. I've listened to rock since the late 1970's. I have seen many "fans" get all bent out of shape because their pet band became popular. As soon as that band gets a hit, the old core audience doesn't like the artist as much. That's what I'm talking about. And, I suspect that more than a few people who wish Devin would remain obscure are doing it because they want him to "stay cool."

Now, the flip side to that is that a lot of artists get a hit and then all kinds of pressure mounts on them to repeat the success. The record label starts investing more in them. It becomes a meat grinder that reduces them to just so much ground beef if they can't produce. This is probably why bands are not cool once they get popular. I'm sure the pressure got to Metallica and that's why they are where they are. No wonder fans don't want their favorite band to get popular.

I don't think this is a danger with Devin, though. So, I'd be happy to see SYL sell platinum and to hear "Life" blasting over car commercials and to buy my kids Physicist brand jeans.

I'm going to say at the outset, with no offense intended, that it appears to me that you speak another language other than English as your primary language. I say this because I think we will probably have a misunderstanding because of an inability on both sides to be understood. I'm not trying to be bitchy, but I don't see how you could miss my "stance" on this. [/quote]

Im going to say , with no offense intended , this is the late night language of gin. Furthermore, your stance was very vague to me.

****You're putting out the idea that an artist needs to be ethichal or he will sell out. But, you muddy the issue with a relativist argument ("that's his decision and he has to live with it. That's a mark on his life whether he views it good or bad.") In otherwords, you have no stance on it. ****

Sure I do; the stance is a personal one, per the artist. We can sit and speculate what sellng out is or give our own definition, or have one that many people agree on, its still may not be what the actual artist may think selling out is. If that is relativism, great.



*****My stance is that Devin already sold out when he decided to make professional music. Also, selling out is not bad. It is the reality. Certainly there are musicians and artists who start making music with the sole purpose of duplicating past success because they have run out of things to say (Metallica, St. Anger, for example). Devin is not there. So, if he wants to license any of his songs for commercial purposes, I say, rawk on! Do it! Get all the money out of your work that you can! Anybody who says otherwise is a self-righteous ass.*****


Again his choice. I dont encourage him to do anything that he doesnt want to do. If he stopped making music, that would suck, but its his choice. I recall one person coming on here just after AE and said he wished devin stopped taking his medication of some sort so he would go back to making music like terria. that is simply rude. From my point of view, I say make money within reason; if you have to become a scoundrel to make money, thats a big differnrce. Making money is easy if you have no regard for anybody else. You may not think so, but in all honesty, it is.


****You quit your job because people were complimenting you and you didn't care anymore? Okay. I guess. How about becoming a better chef? You were only the best in the city. What about other cities? What about the fact that you were providing a service to the people who loved your food? Don't you think it was very self-serving and selfish to quit because your need for adoration was satisfied?*****

I see you are trying to think for me and imply some things with little jabs. cute.. I simply said the compliments meant nothing to me any more. I simply got to the point I didnt care. My need for adoration? hahahahah get off your high horse. You have no idea of who I am.

*****I can't speak for others. I think success for Devin would mean total freedom to do what he wants; which he already is, so he is successful, in my mind. Wildly successful. But, that being said, I also think he should wring all the money out of his work that he can. One day he won't be able to play anymore. One day he and Tracy will be old. He will need retirement money, a house, etc. Milk it, I say!*****

I dont. I simply say to him, do whatever makes you happy. Life is short.

*****I am extremely confused as to what you're talking about here. I'm a high school teacher. I've listened to metal since the early 1980's. I've listened to rock since the late 1970's. I have seen many "fans" get all bent out of shape because their pet band became popular. As soon as that band gets a hit, the old core audience doesn't like the artist as much. That's what I'm talking about. And, I suspect that more than a few people who wish Devin would remain obscure are doing it because they want him to "stay cool."****

Ah, high school teacher. English was it? Explains alot. ( there is my jab back to you) Im not going to go back and forth with you on education degrees, etc. I simply dont grade papers everyday with my writing and sometimes I get a bit sloppy with my spelling and grammar. If it makes you feel better to act high and mighty over somebody who was a little pissed up, thats cool. Your choice.

Now to the point of "staying cool" the only people I stated above, are people on the internet, a very small community, who might hold this view. And if they did hold this view, would they share it with others? Or might that be contradictory? See , this example of a person wioshing devin to stay cool by obscurity, simply doesnt exist, I havent seen them.. Can you point one out to me? Do you think that if Devin became more popuular because his awesome music hits the world that they would stop liking him? Give me a break. Ive followed Rush for a long time. Im not too big on their newer music, but I still really dig them live and love hearing them play both their old and new stuff. There is a good example oif a band not "selling out" Granted they did have a tune on a nissan commercial.....

*****Now, the flip side to that is that a lot of artists get a hit and then all kinds of pressure mounts on them to repeat the success. The record label starts investing more in them. It becomes a meat grinder that reduces them to just so much ground beef if they can't produce. This is probably why bands are not cool once they get popular. I'm sure the pressure got to Metallica and that's why they are where they are. No wonder fans don't want their favorite band to get popular.******

This is true: Fan pressure can kill a band. I used to really dig a band called Dream theater. they just wore out on me, and over time all that which I used to like, seemed flat and masturbatory. But the point here is , that band had SO much pressure to put out Metropolis part two over the years , and they finally did; it was uninspired and lame ( wont go into detail) but this is truly a case and point for pressure creating albums that suck. wheher it be from fans, record companies, etc. Devin has his own record lanbel and studio it seems. and if fans give him pressure, he seems like the kind of person to silently say fuck you.. and I commend him for that.

Er... I hate to piss on your bubble, Mudtrailer (well, maybe not THAT much since you're being so needlessly aggressive in this thread), but Dream Theater's Scenes From A Memory ("Metropolis part two") is a massive favourite with maybe 85-90% of the band's fans, and if anything was a reaction AGAINST the previous album which had been created "under pressure". I certainly wouldn't call it "uninspired and lame".

[JuZ]

Again his choice. I dont encourage him to do anything that he doesnt want to do. If he stopped making music, that would suck, but its his choice. I recall one person coming on here just after AE and said he wished devin stopped taking his medication of some sort so he would go back to making music like terria. that is simply rude.

I remember that. I remember really having a go at that guy too. And he deserved it. He had the right to say what he thought but he also deserved to have that god-awful opinion shot down in turn. That was just idiotic on so many levels, it wasn't funny. It was plain insulting. I tried to temper my response at the time as I was also admin but now that I'm not I can say what I really think: That was one of the dumbest things anyone has ever said on this forum.

Er... I hate to piss on your bubble, Mudtrailer (well, maybe not THAT much since you're being so needlessly aggressive in this thread), but Dream Theater's Scenes From A Memory ("Metropolis part two") is a massive favourite with maybe 85-90% of the band's fans, and if anything was a reaction AGAINST the previous album which had been created "under pressure". I certainly wouldn't call it "uninspired and lame".

Spoken by a true homer. hahahaha You know DT fans are the most obedient and non critical fans Ive ever met. Granted the band is talented , but my god, they arent THAT good. Very flat... and yes, uninspired. That "spooky goth " concept album really was an embarrassment to my collection.. right to the second hand store....

I remember that. I remember really having a go at that guy too. And he deserved it. He had the right to say what he thought but he also deserved to have that god-awful opinion shot down in turn. That was just idiotic on so many levels, it wasn't funny. It was plain insulting. I tried to temper my response at the time as I was also admin but now that I'm not I can say what I really think: That was one of the dumbest things anyone has ever said on this forum.

I didnt go at that guy because I was quite new at that time and didnt post much at all. Furthermore I didnt restrain myself at that time. After being banned from many boards, Ive learned to excersize at least a bit of restraint. hahahaha I did see Tracy unload on that guy......

Its hard to believe that people can look at another person and tell them how to live, whats right for them, if its for the gain of somebody else, or just some self righteousness.... See the "Don't you think it was very self-serving and selfish to quit because your need for adoration was satisfied? " above.

Mudtrailer,

I agree to disagree with you. Although, I don't think we actually disagree but I can also see that you don't understand what I'm saying and I don't understand what you're saying. So, we can agree to not understand each other. That's fair.

I see you labeled me high and mighty and I'm sorry if I came across that way. Look, dude, all we have to judge people on is the ability to communicate via the written word. If you were drunk then you might want to indicate so. I wasn't trying to be offensive and I said so. A lot of people put their location under the avatar, you didn't so I don't know where you're from.

I didn't jab at you. I was just stunned that you'd quit a job because you got sick of compliments. People tell me all the time I'm a good teacher. So, I resolve to be better. When I win Teacher of the Year (okay, better say "If" so you don't think I'm being high and mighty) I'm not going to quit because I was the best teacher. I'm going to re-evaluate and look to see where I can improve. Maybe I misunderstood you but it seems silly. You're right. I have no idea who you are, so if you don't want to be misunderstood you might want to give more information. It's not crazy for me to make some assumptions based on something you said.

Anyway, I asked a question which was a perfect opportunity to give more information. But, you got all insulted instead. Oh well. I still don't get how getting tired of compliments means you quit being a chef. But, it doesn't really matter. I'm not telling you what to do. I asked a question.

In my opinion, I went out of my way to be polite and respectful in my post to you. Which again shows that we don't understand each other. No big deal.

Anyway, good wishes to you and yours.

......... sat night.