and a little off the main topic, the fight for volume in the market place, it is frustrating
but dont radio stations have their own super duper outboard shit to ensure theres no dramatic volume variation between tracks?

and yet another thought...

Theres been talk on the boards about 5.1 mixes and SACD/DVD-A versions being put out for a while. Seems like the sorta thing Inside Out dont mind doing.. and It occured to me that everything except the SYL stuff would be entirely owned by Dev. Plus its all digital, so Devin must have the raw tracks somewhere on hard drives.. so I dont see why they couldn't at least give it a go. I tell ya, I wouldn't mind at the very least a stereo 48k/24-bit version of Synchestra..
Although I imagine Ocean Machine mighta been recorded at the cd sampling rate and all that.

You are right, although it's usually less than super-duper and about as harsh and pleasant as cleaning your teeth with a wire-bristle brush!

In the case of broadcast with that final stage of processing it's just as much an excercise in limiting anything coming from their studios and playback systems for safety as it is an excercise in consistent levels from program to program.

5.1 mixes would be awesome, but whether it's cost effective for HDR would be the real issue...

Turn off your LFE and listen again - I guarantee there will be an SPL drop.

I will try this experiment in my car and post my results...

Please do.

Do you seriously believe audio compression software that can be downloaded off the net for free (and that is made for creating low quality mp3 files with) is comparable with a $20k compressor used in a professional studio? Of course not!

Of course not. Still, there are many albums that were released in the last coule of years with a horrible sound due to shitty mastering and overcompression. Listen to Iron Maiden's "Dance Of Death" album or Rush's "Vapor Trails". This problem was discussed extensively (not only) on the official Iron Maiden board two years ago and even the producer Kevin Shirley adressed this issue when a board member e-mailed him. Obviously Shirley himself was underwhelmed by the mastering job (that was done by somebody else).

So obviously there's more to it than a $20k compressor used in a professional studio.

There is a good "Vapor Trails" review on amazon.com written by a user with the name "foreverreal" that adresses the mastering issue.

AND NO, I DON'T THINK THAT SYNCHESTRA SOUNDS IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM HORRIBLE, OK?

But I noticed the slight drops in sound level during the bass bombs, too. And I use a Harman/Kardon amplifier and Mivoc speakers. That may be not a high-end, but a pretty good system, I suppose.

Anyway,
Synchestra = very good production, great album
Terria = probably Devin's best sounding album, production-wise
Biomech = still my favourite Devin album

My 0.02 €

As far as I know the effect everyone talks about really appears because of heavy compression during the mastering process. It's there on cheap systems, it's there on better systems (of course you can hear that bass effect better when using a subwoofer), it's there when listening to the original CD and it's there when listening to an mp3.

The problem is: If you haven't got a subwoofer - or a system that can handle the bass properly - you will have a drop in volume. Because of the compression the overall volume is nearly always the same. But during these sub-bombs the loudest frequency band will be the bass. And if your audio system cannot reproduce it properly you will hear a drop in volume.

But I wonder why no one here ever considered that this effect could be volitional.

Couldn't it be that Devin liked and wanted this effect when compression drops the volume of the overall music because of the sub-bombs?

i can just say "maybe" to that assumption, but i want to remark that the drops in volume due to bass bombs are FAR more extreme on alien.

in the beginning of this thread, someone complained aboot the overall-compression that destroys the dynamics. i share that opinion: when i first heard hypergeek i did'nt even realize that it was a heavy, crushing metal part, but i just thought "hu? what strange sound is that?" cause the mellow intro was so loud.
i also find the snaredrum to be a bit weak. it's well audible throughout the album, but a bigger sound - a tiny bit louder and a bit more bass - would have done well.

but what am i saying here? the record is a fantastic journey, and the mix is great. also, devin did a fantastic job on background sounds again. i'd have liked to hear that muezzin-guy in the beginning of pixlliate abit louder, but that's taste.

all in all, the production is still outstanding.

Agreed on Alien.

Man, you guys are picky...

So I played the song "Hypergeek" with my subwoofer disabled and my front speakers high-passed at the usual 80Hz. If there was any decrease in volume during the high-intensity bass blasts, it was too slight for me to notice. I also tried the same with "War" from Infinity, and did not notice any volume drops. This leads me to the conclusion that volume drops during bass blasts are an indication that either your system can't handle the demands of the music, or perhaps your high-pass filter is set too low. I plan on trying this with "Shitstorm" too, because when I listened to the MP3 on my shitty computer speakers, I noticed all sorts of volume drops throughout the song...

Man, you guys are picky...

So I played the song "Hypergeek" with my subwoofer disabled and my front speakers high-passed at the usual 80Hz. If there was any decrease in volume during the high-intensity bass blasts, it was too slight for me to notice. I also tried the same with "War" from Infinity, and did not notice any volume drops. This leads me to the conclusion that volume drops during bass blasts are an indication that either your system can't handle the demands of the music, or perhaps your high-pass filter is set too low. I plan on trying this with "Shitstorm" too, because when I listened to the MP3 on my shitty computer speakers, I noticed all sorts of volume drops throughout the song...

It will be very slight if you listen on a good system with the original compressed mastered CD. I think the problem is people are listening on crap speakers to poorly compressed mp3 files

Man, you guys are picky...

So I played the song "Hypergeek" with my subwoofer disabled and my front speakers high-passed at the usual 80Hz. If there was any decrease in volume during the high-intensity bass blasts, it was too slight for me to notice. I also tried the same with "War" from Infinity, and did not notice any volume drops. This leads me to the conclusion that volume drops during bass blasts are an indication that either your system can't handle the demands of the music, or perhaps your high-pass filter is set too low. I plan on trying this with "Shitstorm" too, because when I listened to the MP3 on my shitty computer speakers, I noticed all sorts of volume drops throughout the song...

It will be very slight if you listen on a good system with the original compressed mastered CD. I think the problem is people are listening on crap speakers to poorly compressed mp3 files

That's like the fifth time you've said that. You're assuming a lot for someone that hasn't been around very long and doesn't know most people. Why is it that so many "audiophiles" have to take this extremely condescending attitude? I listen on Grado headphones to 320kbps AAC files and I hear the drops. On my Onkyo system it sounds awesome, though, when I plug my iPod in. On my Shure E2c's the drops are very noticeable. And, this is where you disparage my audio equipment.

Anyway, maybe it'll get the thread locked, I dunno, but personally, I find your comments to be insulting and condescending. Paroxyst has been far more civil. You automatically assume you are the only one with a good system and knowledge about audio. Which automatically tells me you're not as informed as you think you are. It's a general rule that anytime somebody shows up and starts in trumpeting about how much they know and how they are total experts in the field it's a fair bet they aren't any such thing. If you want to be taken seriously around here you might mix in a little more compassion, kindness and openmindedness. Otherwise, you might want to take your nose-in-the-air condescension to an audiophile site where it will be more appreciated by people with the ability to discern how impressive you truly are.

And, for what it's worth, Coma, I think it's kinda lame to lock a whole thread because one guy gets on it and starts flaming away about how great his audio system is and how knowledgeable in the field he is. Ban that one user, if you have to at all, and this is a perfectly good thread.

That's a fair point, but neither is it of any use to have a thread where there is no actual discussion of the specific root topic going on...

Of course I wanna leave this thread open because it is of prime interest, but as with everything - "discuss", not "diss".

Man, you guys are picky...

I like to think of it as "attention to detail"...

It will be very slight if you listen on a good system with the original compressed mastered CD. I think the problem is people are listening on crap speakers to poorly compressed mp3 files

So you admit now that there is a drop in the mid-to-upper frequencies as a result of the final compression stage of the CD mastering?

I understand the argument that MPEG data compression robs the recording further of dynamic range, but I am not convinced that it is even largely responsible for the widespread observations made of these recordings by a myriad of users on the forum, many of which have listened through studio monitors, full-range home hi-fi and PA systems.


What I think has really been forgotten amongst all this is that there is no definitive answer to rgx612a's initial question, or any definite explanation over-the-net to any other user's guitar-dip observations. Of course a system being poorly crossed-over will further exacibate the phenomenon, there is no question in my mind that the mastering has played a part, and MPEG data compression may also be responsible for further exacibating the phenomen.

What we've really come up with is a very interesting and broad range of possible causes of this phenomenon and it's proved an interesting read. It's just a shame that some of the other theories brought to light could not have been delivered with a simple "That also may be because..." and thus a little more common courtesy in the interest of mature, objective discussion.

Thanks again for your support gurp13.

Easily some his best work production-wise on Synchestra. I don't think anything on here could sound any better than it does.

thats all I want to say...