Jut to clarify I kind of answered this along this lines of "sick" meaning, at what point has it gone too far...not to label any situation or individual as "sick"

Too far in what sense? Where's the line?

Zyprexa, yes, the deadlock I'm talking about is a psychological category. But everyone has that deadlock. Everyone has his own way of dealing with that deadlock. Why is self-inflicting injury unacceptable as the solution for dealing with said deadlock? I mean, what does it say about US if we can't take someone else's self-inflicted pain? Where is the short circuit, why is that unbearable for us?

[Keeker]

Zyprexa, yes, the deadlock I'm talking about is a psychological category. But everyone has that deadlock. Everyone has his own way of dealing with that deadlock. Why is self-inflicting injury unacceptable as the solution for dealing with said deadlock? I mean, what does it say about US if we can't take someone else's self-inflicted pain? Where is the short circuit, why is that unbearable for us?

We 'cannot take' someone else's self-inflicted pain because instinctively we do not like to see other people in pain. We are, to a fair degree, an altruistic ape. The very fact that so many of us have that gut reaction speaks for itself. Damaging one's body is simply not a good long term natural survival strategy and so nearly all of us are programmed not to do it. Disgust is one of our strongest emotions, presumably to make us keep ourselves clean, healthy and infection free.

On that basis it is only natural that we should feel a sense of unease when we see someone else in physical and mental distress. So I'd say what that says about US is pretty good and healthy actually!

Zyprexa, yes, the deadlock I'm talking about is a psychological category. But everyone has that deadlock. Everyone has his own way of dealing with that deadlock. Why is self-inflicting injury unacceptable as the solution for dealing with said deadlock? I mean, what does it say about US if we can't take someone else's self-inflicted pain? Where is the short circuit, why is that unbearable for us?

We 'cannot take' someone else's self-inflicted pain because instinctively we do not like to see other people in pain. We are, to a fair degree, an altruistic ape. The very fact that so many of us have that gut reaction speaks for itself. Damaging one's body is simply not a good long term natural survival strategy and so nearly all of us are programmed not to do it. Disgust is one of our strongest emotions, presumably to make us keep ourselves clean, healthy and infection free.

On that basis it is only natural that we should feel a sense of unease when we see someone else in physical and mental distress. So I'd say what that says about US is pretty good and healthy actually!

What this person said. As well as that though everybody has their own way of dealing with things, not all ways people resort to are necessarily advisable as regards long-term effects. I know a guy and he's got huge scars all up his arm from when he was around my age. Cutting himself was his way of getting a physical release from the mental chaos he found himself in. Now looking at his arms nearly makes him feel as bad as he felt when he did the cuts, even though all the problems he had then seem trivial now.

Your body is the only one you'll ever have. Any change you have is visible on the outside, and appearances are sometimes all we have to base people on. And if I saw somebody who had self-inflicted wounds all over them without knowing anything about them or their past, I could only assume they have some very deep issues.

I couldn't disagree more. I think the problem is in us, not in them. I think all that sympathy and compassion and altruism are just excuses we use for not wanting to see what these people are "telling" us. We want them to change because they are displaying something about us we don't want to see.
I don't know, maybe someone has a slight idea of what I'm aiming at, but in no way I'm trying to convince anyone in anything. I just think with this issue one has to go deeper. It's like: tell me what disgusts you and I'll tell you who you are, y'know, or something.

No, I completely understand what you're saying and I take your point. Just personally, maiming my body wouldn't be my chosen method for dealing with problems in me.

But Goat try and apply it to yourself, if a close friend of yours was slitting their wrists wouldn't you disencourage it? I mean, if the person meant anything to me I'd never forgive myself for simply standing by and letting them destroy their body. It could be as simple as lending them an ear, going out of your way to be there for them.

It's something that denotes a problem in somebody's life, and I reckon it's something that should really be dealt with on a psychological level before it gets out of hand.

It's not my method either, although I had an excursion into it (nothing drastic) once when I was an angry teenager.

As for the role play, if my close friend would be cutting himself I'd talk my ass off with him. When I'd get the feeling of what he's about, I'd try to understand what good is that doing for him, is he relieved or not, if yes, cool (why not?), if not, I would assume he is trying to solve some sort of a problem and I'd try to make him deal with it in some other more effective way. Of course.

But what about those body artists? With my "deeper" remark I was more aiming at them, at people who are in fetishist relation with pain, at people we look away from, people we could never be friends with because we're literally worlds apart? I think those cannot be done with with simple "that's sick!" They pose a problem for US.

[Keeker]

I couldn't disagree more. I think the problem is in us, not in them. I think all that sympathy and compassion and altruism are just excuses we use for not wanting to see what these people are "telling" us. We want them to change because they are displaying something about us we don't want to see.

I think possibly we're coming at the same thing from two opposite ends of the argument. The sympathy isn't an excuse but a desire to find out what this person is trying to tell us is broken inside them, an instinctive wish to help them solve it somehow. Even if we don't act on it in person.

I don't know, maybe someone has a slight idea of what I'm aiming at, but in no way I'm trying to convince anyone in anything. I just think with this issue one has to go deeper. It's like: tell me what disgusts you and I'll tell you who you are, y'know, or something.

I said above that we were coming from opposite ends of an argument. Now I don't think so... we're talking about entirely different levels of thought. You're working in the higher planes of human psychology. Whereas I like to strip the thin veneer of modern brain away and get down to the deep fundamentals to see what really makes us tick as a species. I'm also speaking about people as a species rather than anyone's individual situation. I'm well aware that the human mind works on many layers of development from the very primitive to the more recent higher functions. They frequently work against each other - probably why we 'break' so often in our artificial modern world. It is also late at night and I'm probably talking drivel.

So yes, I do sort of see what you mean. I'm just not thinking in those terms within this discussion.

Too far in what sense? Where's the line?

Of what I personally would/wouldn't do...

or what I personally find objectionable

That's not necessarily to say that I think that no-one else should do that either, just a personal viewpoint. (apart from things like actually cutting yourself, as Zyprexa was saying, if that was someone I knew, I would definitely be hoping to discourage them!)

Self harm and body mods are miles apart., being willing to endure pain for something you want doesnt make you sick disfunctional or anything. After all 90% of relationships are enduring pain for something you want its human nature.

We want them to change because they are displaying something about us we don't want to see.

What? The possiblity that I could be a psycho, too? Someone who harms his body on purpose and acts against fundamental natural and physical principles? Against his survival instinct? Indeed, I don't want to see nutcases acting this way, I want them to seek help.

To me, there is no logical reason, or any reason at all for that matter, to inflict pain on yourself.
I can see that tattoo's and piercings have become jewelry and part of your clothing-style, so somewhere I can see a reason for that. I'd still never pay anyone who sticks a needle into my body.
If you go a little bit further and talk about cutting yourself, branding yourself, or hurting yourself in any way, I can see no reason. I've talked with a lot of people about this subject, because I really wanted to know why, but there hasn't been one person who could give me a logical reason of why they were cutting themselves.
And ofcourse, I still believe that in most of the cases, it's (mostly spoiled) kids asking for attention.

I've only known one person who cut herself and she said she did it 'cause it helped her with deal depression and anti-depressants didn't help.