I agree with what Ike said...I'm glad laws are strict here when it comes to that. I myself have never touched a gun and I'm quite proud of that...and I have no plans to ever change that. Like Ike said, there have been school incidents here too but once in a while someone does freak out, nothing you can do about that...but I do think it is still on a somewhat acceptable level here. I also would have no problem with gun laws getting even stricter here. Of course that is the European type of view and I'm trying to understand and accept and respect that many in the US have a different take on that issue, just as it is with the Death Penalty. And I think it's a cultural issue more than anything else. But still, I think it is a fact that the gun crime rate in the US in relation is much, much higher than in most other Western countries, if not all...but correct me if I'm wrong. And it would not be fair to just exclusively blame it on 'foreign' nationals, etc. There are mixed cultures everywhere. Do guns kill people? No I don't think so. People kill people. Is it easier to kill someone with a gun? I would say so...definitely. And that is reason enough for me not to ever possess one.

Some very good points here

I'm very glad we have strict gun controls...having said that, I'm not sure it's quite as simple as 'tighter gun controls = less gun crime/violence' I'm sure that the pattern between different countries gun laws is not a 100% accurate correlation.

Thinking about situations when guns are used, I doubt if it makes that much difference to organised crime (I imagine they can get their hands on them anyway) and probably wouldn't stop someone like one of these school shootings (the majority are very much pre-mediated, with the killers planning for a long time, so it's not a case of someone grabbing the nearest gun, they'd probably find a way to get them)

I must say that I'm very glad we have the laws we do in this country though

One problem with discussions like this is that it's rare that anyone's mind is changed. It usually only upsets people. Kinda like religion. People believe what they have always been taught. Maybe it would be different with a group of people who are more (musically) open-minded.

I live in America and own firearms. I also own two cars. I ride my bike to work, though, most days. For that matter I own three bikes. My point is that even though I own two cars, I don't always drive it. And, I'm certainly not able to ride all of my bikes all the time. But, I'm glad I have them when I need them.

Some have suggested that there's no reason to have a gun so it's useless and dangerous to own one. It's true that guns can be dangerous. But, many things are dangerous if you use them incorrectly. I have never used a gun for self-protection, nor have I ever committed a crime with one. I take them target shooting, if I use them at all. My cars are also dangerous. People die every day because of the misuse of cars. But, no one calls for the banning of cars because everyone enjoys using them. Cars are powerful, big, and pollute the environment. They are also convenient.

If I had to lay bets on what was going to kill me prematurely, I'd pick a) cancer, b) car accident or c) cycling accident. I don't even think about being shot by a gun. The fact is that despite whatever distorted notions about America you might have, *most* people do not own guns around here. It might have to do with the fact that I live in a very urban area in California (which has the most restrictive gun laws in the nation and is the one of the most liberal states).

My take, though, is that if you are a law-abiding citizen, you have a clean record, can prove the competency to handle a firearm, that you should be able to obtain a permit to carry one. The advantage to this is that most criminals would then have to deal with the fact that anyone on the street could potentially protect themselves or others with a legal firearm. It's like having cops everywhere! Two states in the nation have laws similar to this: Florida and Texas. Those two states also have some of the lowest violent crime rates. If you believe those who call for more gun laws, you'd think that those two states would be like the Wild West with blood running in the streets. But, they appear to be safer than other states. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

There's another historical perspective here that I believe is important to remember. The writers of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights knew that if you wanted a democracy of the people and for the people that the people had to have power. They needed the power to overthrow the government if it became corrupt. When you outlaw guns, you start to remove that ability. Some will tell me this is foolish, that the average citizens can't fight tanks and missiles and trained soldiers. I will offer several rebuttals. Tell that to the people of Afghanistan, Iraq and Vietnam and I think they will argue with you. I don't honestly think that Americans will rise up against the government but I don't want to vote to have that right and ability to be taken either. Who knows? Maybe it will be exercised one day.

I want to also say that there is no equivalence between gun ownership and foreign policy. Someone suggested that Americans want to force their views on everyone else or kill them if they don't agree. First, America has hundreds of millions of citizens. It's a GROSS over-generalization to apply a single mindset to Americans. Right now, 70% (or more) disapprove of Bush and his administration. Why they re-elected him (hell, elected him in the first place) is beyond me. But for that matter, I'm becoming to think that the it doesn't really matter who you elect because they are all the same underneath the empty ideology. Anyway, the majority of Americans are against the war and think we should never have gone in to Iraq in the first place. (Try also to remember that six years ago, the whole world was in favor of America hunting down terrorists. Unfortunately, Bush et. al. squandered that precious consensus by falsifying evidence at the U.N. to justify the Iraq war. If the rest of the world had any stones they'd put Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield, and others, on trial for war crimes. Torture, Geneva Conventions?)

Anyway, my bottom line is this. Guns are useful and not inherently bad. Saying that is like saying no one should own stoves. They have fire, could burn you, etc. After all, you don't need one anymore, you could just use a microwave and wear a jacket or a blanket. People should not use fire in the home. It's just too dangerous!

But, that's preposterous. Things can be dangerous, but it's mostly because people don't know how to use them safely. There are good reasons to own guns. Safety, civic responsibility, recreation.

Australia's fairly strict on gun control, especially after the Port Arthur Massacre just over 10 years ago (35 dead, 18 wounded).

I really don't see the need for city-dwellers to own guns, unless they're legitimate target sport shooters, and in that case the laws for purchase/storage/etc should be tight. Plus I'm not too fond of hunting... not from the animal rights point of view (if it were that I'd be vegetarian) but if you want to do something really impressive then get out there and stalk and kill that animal with a knife or your bare hands.

I heard the most absurd comment the other day, something like "if all citizens were allowed to conceal carry then we'd be able to avoid these school shooting massacres". Hmmm, perhaps, but then how many other deaths would occur from pissed-off people using their guns in everyday disputes like road rage? It's generally acknowledged that many firearm-related deaths involve those whose families have a member that actually own a firearm.

Seems highly doubtful that any firearms policy in America will change any time soon though.

Erm, having said that, I really enjoy target shooting the one time I tried it, but I'm not exactly in a rush to get out there and get a license and a handgun.

Edit: Haha, I just realised my icon is Principal Strickland pointing a shotgun at Marty McFly... hmmm.

The fact is that despite whatever distorted notions about America you might have, *most* people do not own guns around here.

It's always hard to imagine everyday life and culture in parts of the world one has never been to. I admit that it's hard for me to relate to or imagine an "average" living in the U.S. But I think the possible distortion is created largely by the pictures of American "culture" transmitted by media for us europeans, for example. The Finnish television (I don't own one) is full of American movies and television series, which are usually (apart from cheap sitcoms) about murderers, cops, crimes and "action", meaning people acting people killing and beating each other. I understand that it is something called entertainment, and apparently many people around the world like it. I don't. And unfortunately, lately the local movie makers and TV crews have been increasingly eager to ape the American popular culture, instead of producing something more original and building more on local culture.

Politics is another issue - people around the world disapprove Mr. Bush and his regime, but all western leaders, ours included, are willingly jumping his wagon for - I can't understand what - false security, money and power apparently. But every day on newspapers and TV news for the past years they tell us about war on terror, violence and bombings in Iraq, Afghanistan, the U.S. planning a military base somewhere... I mean, the pictures that we get from the U.S. are very violent, with plenty of guns everywhere.

This is absolutely not to dismiss fellow Americans. It's certain that there are good people everywhere, it's just that the average northern european probably rarely sees but one distorted side of American culture. It's a shame, really, and makes me wonder why do we fall for that?

Saying that is like saying no one should own stoves. They have fire, could burn you, etc.

That's a bit awkward comparison. The difference between a stove and a gun is that both can burn you, but only the latter can burn another man from a safe distance.

@Toad,

Thanks for your thoughtful post. I can assure you that America is not as monolithic as the media portrayal. Movies and TV shows are designed to entertain and make money. That's it. So, they will give you whatever it is they think you want the most of. Frequently, broadcast news is the same. News in America is a total joke! You have to work very hard to get good information anymore. I mean, as bad as the Virginia Tech murders were that was just another day in Baghdad! The next day 200 people were killed in a bombing in a market in Baghdad. Did we get any expose of the killer or people shaking their heads in grief? 200 died! No, it's just business as usual in Iraq. The hypocrasy is incredible to this American. Are 32 Americans more valuable than 200 Iraqis? That's certainly the message I'm getting.

California has incredibly strict gun laws. Here's some:

-you have to pass a test about gun safety and handling to be eligible to buy a handgun.
-There is a federal background check done on you if you try to purchase a handgun
-There is a 15 day wait between purchase and pick up of any handgun.
-"Assault Rifles" are illegal. This applies to high-powered semi-automatic rifles.
-Fully automatic rifles, submachine guns, pistols are all illegal.
-High capacity magazines are illegal.

And that's just a sampling.

My understanding is that the vast majority of crimes are committed with illegally obtained firearms. I don't know about the Virginia Tech killings, but the kids at Columbine totally got their guns illegally.

I guess if you could guarantee me that no guns would be available, illegally or otherwise, I would be all for a complete gun ban. But, it won't happen. In that case, as a law abiding, sane, good person, I'd like to keep my guns. Thanks.

The VT killer bought both of his guns completely legally.

But, of course, he broke federal law when he took guns on a college campus. But, then, nut jobs rarely care much for laws. I still wonder, if he had decided to kill people by running them over with a car if we would then be discussing how to make sure cars are safer of if people should even be allowed to own them. Doubtful.

My two cents.

All other factors aside, the more freely available guns are, the more likely people are to use them to hurt each other. I can't believe I also read people saying if other students at Virginia Tech also had guns that this event would not have happened. Perhaps true, but then every time there was a drunken brawl at the place there'd be a serious risk of someone getting shot.

Anywho, the point I would like to bring up is this. Some of you are saying that even if guns were illegal it wouldn't make a difference as people would get them anyway and law abiding citizens would lose out.... So, out of curiosity, would you also prefer illicit drugs to be legalised?

(I'm not directly comparing drugs with guns, just curious)

Firepower is evil. Guns give people ideas. Especially when they're not thinking straight. I don't want guns integrated in my culture, I want as strict laws on that as possible. Because when they're available, they become the obvious option/choice. I don't want that option/choice. I don't want to find myself in the position where the next lunatic will make me a survivalist killer. Baddies will always be able to get a gun? Ok, but the harder it is for me, the harder it is for them. Let's make it harder for them, not easier for me. If you make it easier for me, the foresaid integration starts to happen, and that's a downward spiral.

Guns bring power to the owner. And whoever has such power, will be tempted to abuse it. With the worst possible consequences.

I can walk alone outside at night as wasted as I possibly can and the only thing I'll have to worry about is that somebody might hit me. Which I probably wouldn't even notice because of my face being all numb already. That's what I call freedom

Well Ireland has laws outlawing guns, except probably in the country and for hunting. And there're probably less than seventy deaths a year in the 32 counties of our country that has a population of 4 million people.

Though the Americanization of this country (no offence to Americans or anything. We're just developing way too quickly and making all the same mistakes ye did) means that there're stupid drug dealers and mobs and all that fucking idiotic shit just developing now and lots more people are getting shot than used to in gangland killings. It's actually the most retarded thing ever. It's such a waste of life, like.

The thing is, at least with the US, the people who are doing the crimes that involve guns are not the people who are obtaining the guns legally. If there was some way to stop people from getting them illegally they really would have very little bearing on what happens with them here.

I don't believe that automatic guns are necessary in any way. I'll say hunting guns should remain legal, as they serve an obvious purpose to those who use them, even if I myself couldn't use them. Also, I feel hand guns, especially for women for self defense should be legal as well. Someone comes up to you with their gun that they illegally obtained, you'd really be better off if you had a gun yourself to defend yourself. I'm not saying that guns are a good thing, because I don't believe that, but they're a part of society. Even if they're made completely illegal, there will still be people who will be able to illegally obtain them (also there will be those who will even make them illegally), thus I don't see a problem with safe, legal gunowners given the circumstances that exist with guns.

Also wanna mention clay pigeon shooting. This is something that my girlfriend enjoys doing, and you need an actual gun to do it. The only reason she'd ever even think about having a gun outside of that is in the case of self defense (she prefers to stick with her pepper spray though, since it isn't lethal), and she really doesn't want to ever have to even think of needing to do that.

However, I would make laws much more strict on gunowners. If you have any felony on your record, no matter what it is, no gun for you. If anyone is shot with the gun that you own, outside of extreme circumstances, you're also responsible for the injuries obtained by whoever got shot by your gun.

There just need to be much more strict laws to obtain guns, that's more my stance on the issue.

[JuZ]

But, of course, he broke federal law when he took guns on a college campus. But, then, nut jobs rarely care much for laws. I still wonder, if he had decided to kill people by running them over with a car if we would then be discussing how to make sure cars are safer of if people should even be allowed to own them. Doubtful.

True, but you can't pick up the kids, take Grandpa to the dentist or take a woman about to deliver a baby to the hospital in a handgun.

You could hold someone up and steal their car but that's about it!

[JuZ]

The sheer NUMBER of guns in the US (they outnumber people, unbelievably) means that your average street hoodlum has a very strong chance of packing heat when they're up to no good. In countries with stricter laws and a less prevalent gun culture, the kid that wants your wallet or your car or whatever is far less likely to put a bullet in your gut than in the US. Law of averages and all that stuff.

So it seems to be a vicious circle of guns vs guns. 'We need the good guns to protect us from the bad guns.' As an admittedly ill-informed outsider it has long seemed to me that fear and self-preservation appear to be the two motivating factors that perpetuate this idea of good guns. Family-protecting guns. But that's just my half-formed opinion in the form of a wild generalisation, so don't read too much into it!

Australia has its issues, so this is in no way US-bashing and I love great big McChunks of what the US has achieved, stands for and believes in. Honest! But, I've gotta say it guys... this gun thing leaves me as cold as Condaleeza's tits. I'm grateful I live in a country where I don't feel the need to own any kind of weapon at all to protect myself or my loved ones. I'd be crazy not too. If Australia ever became that sort of a society, I'd leave in a heartbeat. I guess what I'm saying is that prohibition of guns in isloation would appear to do little to change the situation in the US as the culture of us vs them remains, along with the existing guns.

On a side note, there's a strong chance the singer from Midnight Oil will be the next Shadow Minister for Climate Change, Environment and Heritage in Australia! That's so cool.