[Keeker]

Yet another American school shooting:

http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/-/world/15643341/dozens-including-18-kids-massacred-in-us-school/

Fuck the second amendment. And especially fuck those who continue to buy and defend guns after shit like this.

I suspect the price in dead children will need to be a lot higher before they change to a stricter licensing system.

[EphelDuath666]

I'd disagree. If this ain't the right time to discuss gun control for Americans and also globally then when is the right time? Does some lunatic low life dickwad have to do this in a kindergarten before people start to think about it? I don't understand how any government, no matter where, can allow itself to be the bitch of gun lobbyists.

So yeah, I'm of course quite furious over this whole incident too. Of course it should not matter how old the victims are because it always sucks when something like this happens to people, no matter age or nationality. But kids between 5 and 10, that's just fucking horrible.

[Octillus]

I'd disagree. If this ain't the right time to discuss gun control for Americans and also globally then when is the right time? Does some lunatic low life dickwad have to do this in a kindergarten before people start to think about it? I don't understand how any government, no matter where, can allow itself to be the bitch of gun lobbyists.

So yeah, I'm of course quite furious over this whole incident too. Of course it should not matter how old the victims are because it always sucks when something like this happens to people, no matter age or nationality. But kids between 5 and 10, that's just fucking horrible.

Because we should mourn and not politicize something tragic and come to the discussion soon with rational heads and hearts.

[Keeker]

Yes, but I'm still betting this would probably need to happen on a monthly basis before the gun lobby changed its mind. I hope to be proven wrong though.

[EphelDuath666]

well, you know as well as I do that if it doesn't happen sooner rather than later then it will be the same old same old as usual. It'll just be forgotten and nothing's gonna change. There was talk how there need to be changes after Aurora and does anyone even talk about that anymore? And that happened just a few months ago.

[Octillus]

I'm not going to debate gun control, but the issue at hand has much more to do with how we deal with mental illness in this country than we do with guns. Am I fan of guns? Fuck no. I fucking hate them, and think they have no place in a civil society.

Regardless, this is all a little bit close to home, and I'd rather not debate it with foreign folk especially when I agree with them overall. Everyone's armchair quarterbacking (out here too) and they're not really taking the time to think before pushing their agenda. That goes for the pro-gun folk, that goes for everyone who's spouting off immediately already. I can't open Facebook right now, it's that obnoxious.

The point is, this whole thing's fuckin dreadful, and it's really sad and makes my heart sick. And you know what? There's a ton of other shit out in the world that makes my heart sick too.

Shit happens every day, and everyone runs their mouths like their experts. I'm pretty sure we as a species have no idea what the fuck we're doing. At all.

[EphelDuath666]

you don't need to be an expert though in this case. It's just common sense. You don't have to be American to have an opinion on this. This could have happened in any other country, even here in Germany. My opinion would still be the same. As for facebook, I wouldn't know what's going on there as I neither have a facebook account, nor will I ever have one.

Well, speaking as a gun owner (so fuck me, right?), and having already been pilloried on Facebook over this incident, 'cause, y'know, all us gun nuts are responsible for what happened, I can' help but wonder how many of you own knives? Do you use knives in your kitchens or at table to cut up food? Because last weeka woman in Chicago stabbed two children to death. Five people a week die in the UK as a result of knife attacks. Knives outsrip all other weapons in homicides worldwide by a massive margin. So I guess you are all guilty. Unless you only eat with spoons.

Chopsticks is where it's at, Billy.

[EphelDuath666]

well, great argument and all but I'm sure the kid would have not killed 20 children and most of the adults with a knife without anyone keeping him from it in the process. Sure, I know something like that happened in China but something went seriously wrong there.
I'm personally not saying all gun owners are nuts either. But when any douchebag can buy a gun at a gun show from a private person without a background check then clearly something ain't going right, right? And why would any douchebag be allowed to buy an assault rifle in the first place?


we had a case here in Germany where some lunatic went into a school with an axe, injuring one girl before teachers were able to tackle him down. Now how would that story have ended if the guy had gone into that school with a legally purchased assault rifle instead of an axe?

Before we are all on each others throats can we at least agree that it should be easier to get mental health care than it is to buy guns? Anybody? Start from there ok? You know, something besides pure rhetoric?

[Keeker]

Before we are all on each others throats can we at least agree that it should be easier to get mental health care than it is to buy guns? Anybody? Start from there ok? You know, something besides pure rhetoric?

Yes, that's exactly right. This is indeed a two-part issue.

I am a licensed rifle owner but then I live in on a farm so it's a useful tool to have here. But both Billy and I know what hoops we have to jump through to get the licence in the first place, background checks, medical checks., supporting witnesses, locked cabinets securely fixed to walls, ammo stored in a locked separate location and a limit on the amount allowed, etc. And the whole process repeated every few years. I certainly shouldn't be able to walk into a shop and just buy a gun on a whim.

All that being said, you can't legislate against insanity.

China has indeed had a spate of school stabbings in recent years: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20723910

Also: "May 18, 1927: Bath, Michigan School treasurer Andrew Kehoe, after killing his wife and destroying his house and farm, blew up the Bath Consolidated School by detonating dynamite in the basement of the school, killing 38 people, mostly children. He then pulled up to the school in his Ford car, then set off a truck bomb, killing himself and four others. Only one shot was fired in order to detonate dynamite in the car. This was deadliest act of mass murder at a school in the United States."

I guess nothing is new.

I am a licensed rifle owner but then I live in on a farm so it's a useful tool to have here. But both Billy and I know what hoops we have to jump through to get the licence in the first place, background checks, medical checks., supporting witnesses, locked cabinets securely fixed to walls, ammo stored in a locked separate location and a limit on the amount allowed, etc. And the whole process repeated every few years. I certainly shouldn't be able to walk into a shop and just buy a gun on a whim.

To me that sounds pretty much exactly like how it should go. Anyone know how these things work in the states?

Yes, I agree that gun control is essential, but there is an ocean of difference between unlimited gun ownership to anyone over 18 and 'all guns are evil and all gun-owners are nutjobs'.
One of the big problems is that whenever an atrocity like this happens, there is a kneejerk reaction calling for the most extreme draconian regulation, which of course never happens because it is kneejerk and extreme. Rather than taking a measured reasoned look at the situation and a measured reasoned response. But of course by next week everyone on Facebook who is venting their spleen about this will have forgotten about it altogether.
That we live in a world of instant communication, push-button universal moral outrage and goldfish memory is probably the greatest hindrance to effecting real change, be it in gun law, environmental issues, whatever.

[Octillus]

Billy, I'm with you 100%.

I'm completely frustrated with the panel of knee-jerk experts who will soon again fly away to the land of make-believe without addressing something that needs work unless it's within a 72-hour period of prescribed outrage.

I'm also really not keen on the widespread opinions about America without ever living here. I'm not saying that's going on here per say, but I will say it's most certainly a factor in many opinions of foreigners I know who have never even been here. This is a flawed place. So's where you're from. I'm all for widespread criticism on our international policies, we're absolutely deserving of it, but in terms of domestic policy, you just don't know, so stop. That's not to say a reasonable measured criticism isn't valid, but it's often the plight of the European, whose own situation isn't so fantastic either to rail on us for every little hiccup one of our 311 million citizens commits. Those who yell loudest do not always represent all of us, and I'm rather annoyed that people I've met personally seem to find me an outlier rather than a normal product of America.